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Charlotte
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PostSubject: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:37 pm

preliminary

Dragon wrote:
Ok, so I'm on this other forum right? And they have this little "Pokemon League" of sorts. And naturally, I feel like challenging. They're a bunch of pushovers, too. They all have "themed" gyms like the game. Plus, half the people on the forum didn't know that a Burn status cuts Attack.

But I digress...I need to create a party that can take out ANYTHING. Luckily, there's a little leeway there as to register I need 15 Pokemon in all. So you think there's a 15 Pokemon combination that can handle anything?
Charlotte wrote:
theoretically, this ikki tousen team can take on anything in the metagame. husk's team astral projection, which is undefeatable "when played correctly", has little to say about the gliscor-bronzong walling combination and can't defeat bulkydos as long as i play it right as well. cutting down endless copies of husk's team is what actually got me bored of playing OU.

i'd say that if you want to be able to choose from a pool of 15 pokemon, an all-offensive battling strategy would be optimal. my personal pool consists of this team and the special attack oriented team, so if i were to suggest a place for you to look, this RMT and that one would be the first places i would suggest. obviously, team astral projection is also a good place to start if you're looking for a strong offensive.

i do also have another potentially successful team brewing in my mind right now, which might help (roserade, gliscor, machamp, gengar, flinchkiss, specstran). it's somewhat offensive, but very D/P "bulky sweeper" oriented; the idea is to set up tox spikes with roserade, sr with gliscor, block rapid spin with life orb gengar, force switches using dynamicpunch machamp, and sweep with specstran and flinchkiss. i'll post an RMT either later today or sometime tomorrow so you can examine the new team more in-depth.

these are all just ideas so far - if you have anything in particular in mind that you want to do with your 15-pokemon pool, those would help me shape your pool much faster. also feel free to let me know if you need this by a certain date or time.
Dragon wrote:
Jesus H. Christ.

Alright, now then as for the team, I can't think of anything to really help shorten the list of Pokemon (for once), but I do agree that all out attacking seems to be the best way to go. I do like the idea of Bulky Sweepers, though, since in my Trick Room team (which I finished two days ago) I use Porygon2 partially as a Bulky Sweeper and it's done wonders for me. It even survived Camerupt's STAB + Life Orb boosted Earthquake :O

But yeah, just a general 15 that can cover everything pretty well would be great. Only other thing to keep in mind is that some of the Pokemon they use will be UU, since it's hard to make a mono-type team from just OU/BL. But other basic rules apply and some gyms have quirky little rules to work around (i.e. the Water gym requires the use of at least one water-type *coughgyaracough*).

But one more thing to mention is that they're tier system is slightly different in regards to Deoxys-S (or E, whatever you call it) as he may still be considered Uber there. I'm looking into it now, since I'd really like to use him, so I'll get back to you on that later...
to re-iterate, these are the requirements:

1. we're trying to create a 15-pokemon bench that, when selected from carefully to form a team of 6, can successfully challenge monotype gyms of all different types.
2. we will need to include a large range of kinds of attackers. that is to say, we must include pokemon that can succeed in a trick room situation, pokemon that can break baton pass chains, both slow and sturdy and fast and overwhelming.
3. deoxys-s may potentially be banned.
4. our mindest should be, first and foremost, offensive.

i'll kick this off with that RMT i promised, and a discussion on how we can incorporate nonoffensive strategies into a mainly offensive ideal. WARNING: huge images coming up (i confess, i've fallen in love with them).
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:55 pm

<3 Charlotte Love

Yep, that pretty much covers it. Also, there're some weird rules. Mostly just the Water gym (No healing items, no sleep including Rest, must have one Water-type) but other than that it's just a matter of whether you can use Legendaries (meaning OU/BL/UU ones as well) and a few Partial Item Clauses.

Well, here's the topic where you register. They have little spoiler tabs in the first post with all the rules for each gym.

EDIT: I found out, Deoxys-S is, in fact, OU cheers

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:37 pm

RMT #1: is offensive nonoffense a smart strategy?

overview


intro
in order to investigate nonstandard offensive strategies that can break the metagame, it's best to start off by taking a look at the metagame strategy itself. this team is oriented directly towards the d/p bulky sweeper standard.

game plan
as i've explained before, roserade is the epitome of the very common "set up for the team and die" lead pokemon. she lays down (toxic) spikes and attempts to cripple the opponent otherwise, and the opponent's answer dictates how the rest of the game should be played. ideally, rocks will be set up, switches will be forced, and the other bulky sweepers will do their job lategame.

in depth

roserade @ focus sash
timid
natural cure
6 hp, 252 spatk, 252 spe
-sleep powder
-spikes/toxic spikes
-leaf storm
-hidden power fire

slow or offensively-oriented leads can't deal with this very well. sleep powder cripples whatever would be a problem, toxic spikes can be set up during free turns, leaf storm hurts the little children, hp fire kills steel-types (especially that little bugger forretress). as previously mentioned, "set up and die" is the basic strategy, although roserade has pretty decent special defense to take the occasional nonstab hit.


gliscor @ leftovers
impish
sturdy
252 hp, 6 atk, 252 def
-stealth rock
-knock off/ice fang
-earthquake
-roost

you're hopefully all familiar with this set. knock off may potentially be more useful on gliscor in this setting: if the team is played properly, the dragons for which ice fang is usually present won't be living long enough to do any real damage.


gengar @ life orb
timid
levitate
6 hp, 252 spatk, 252 spe
-hypnosis
-shadow ball
-thunderbolt
-focus blast

standard lo-gar. in reality, any variant of gengar would work in this team slot, because gengar's main use here is to block rapid spinners. however, for that purpose, life orb eases the prediction needed for a choice set, and gengar isn't going to need the extra damage or speed offered by specs or scarf, respectively.


machamp @ leftovers
adamant
no guard
252 hp, 252 atk, 6 spe
-dynamicpunch
-ice punch
-rest
-sleep talk

this is where the real magic starts. did the opponent have a taunter ready to stop the inevitable phazing? never fear, confusion is here. dynamicpunch will invariably debilitate the opponent's number one counter and allow you enough time to batter away with the excellent type coverage afforded you by fighting/ice. machamp's immense attacking power and general sturdiness affords it a longer life than your opponent will ever like; sleep talk will let it act as a stronger sleep and status blocker than roserade ever hoped to be. many teams come unprepared to counter confusion, since it's perhaps the most underrated and underused status utilized in the d/p metagame. be sure to sleep those opposing ghosts utilizing roserade/gengar and knock off support--machamp can do very little to them.


heatran @ choice specs
modest
flash fire
40 hp, 252 spatk, 216 spe
-flamethrower
-dragon pulse
-earth power
-explosion

the immense power afforded you by specs only adds to the "residual damage" theme that runs rampant in this team. specstran requires a different type of prediction than scarftran: scarftran either acts as a late game sweeper or a high-prediction revenge killer, whereas specstran can cause high amounts of damage with almost any attack it carries, even on a "not very effective" hit. thus, one might say that specstran eases prediction. as an example, standard garchomp is 2hkoed by earth power with stealth rock and poison damage factored in--dragon pulse is only necessary to deliver a 1hko.


togekiss @ leftovers
calm
serene grace
252 hp, 6 spatk, 252 spdef
-thunder wave
-air slash
-aura sphere
-roost

hey, it's our old friend flinchkiss! she's our late game sweeper. thunder wave works over body slam because the only potential threats who will resist both twave and toxic spikes are steelix (1hko from aura sphere) and gliscor (2hko from air slash, with stealth rock up). otherwise, nidoking and nidoqueen would pose problems, but they're both rare and easily dispatched, and don't carry true counters anyway. flygon also resists the combo, but it's nothing to really worry about either. the idea is to keep togekiss hidden until the opponent thinks he/she can taste victory, and proceed to wipe the smiles away with those ridiculous defenses and snappy recovery. note: i suggested spikes as a potential alternative on roserade for the express reason that poison might interfere with your ability to induce paralysis. if toxic poisoning becomes more of a hindrance than a help, plain old spikes may prove useful.

discussion
to revisit our purpose, i created this team in order to take a look at the current d/p standard. we have a lead that functions mainly as a lead, an offense that relies on extra effects, and a team synergy that is strictly hit-or-miss.

therefore, in countering these strategies, we must consider the following:

-building pokemon that can work as leads, but also carry functions in the mid- to lategame.
-building teams that can sweep without worrying about residual damage, including damage-blocking abilities like poison heal or guts, or powerful offense to overwhelm status-based strategies.

further considerations
1. "various battle types"
-our pool must be able to succeed in both single and double battle situations.
-thus, building possibilities for semi-double battle specific strategies would be optimal, including earthquake + levitate, as well as omitting some single battle specific strategies, like outrage.
2. "partial item clause"
-our pool must utilize a variety of items.
-thus, "specialty" items like yache berry on garchomp, black sludge on a poison type, or using expert belt over life orb may be ideal.
3. "no legends"
-we must be able to create an effective, legendless team from our pool.
4. "no healing items, held or otherwise"
-self-recovery or team recovery strategies may be deprioritized.
-thus, more offensive variants of common bulky sweepers would be very practical to include in the pool (e.g. life orb gyarados over leftovers gyarados).
5. "no sleep (including self-inflicted sleep)"
-pokemon that rely on sleep to isolate counters, like gengar, must carry moves to otherwise debilitate those counters.
-our strategies must not rely on sleep to succeed.

goals for RMT #2
1. to create a team that uses both standalone offense strategy, but allows room for strategies to overlap.
2. to create a team whose pokemon can fit well into a totally different team strategy.
3. to create a team which, while being potentially successful in a single battle situation, can also succeed in any double battle situation, both 6v6 and 4v4 environments.

conclusion
an answer to the question, "is offensive nonoffense a smart strategy?"

it is not. a team cannot rely on racking up residual damage to win, because all-offensive teams break the residual damage standard. moreover, as this RMT has clearly shown that the strategy pinpoints on the full disabling of GHOST-types in order to be successful, an offensive nonoffense will inevitably fail when these common solutions are kept intact by an intelligent opponent. therefore, purely offensive, wide type coverage sweepers remain the most effective method of breaking down potential threats.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:27 pm

i'd like to open up the discussion to some possibilities for rmt #2, addressing the goals i've suggested.

since we'll most likely be using deoxys-s in the end, i think using team astral projection as a standard to build from would be a good start, yes?
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:30 pm

Seriously, what is your freaking IQ?

I really love this team, but can you explain a bit more about how to set it up and how it works and all that? Just because it's a good strategy won't matter too much if I don't know how to use it effectively.

So if I include this with the last team that's...what like 10 or 11? Some of these guys might be interchangeable.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:10 am

first the explanation on how you should use this team, then the explanation on why you shouldn't use this team.

how to:
phase 1 - lay down toxic spikes if opposing lead is slower and is going to do anything but status or taunt you. sleep powder if it is faster and can 2hko. switch out if it's faster and can status or taunt you.
phase 2 - similarly, lay down toxic spikes on the switch or if the opponent (lead or not) is slower, sleep powder in the same manner, switch out if anything else.
phase 3 - most likely you will bring in heatran to absorb a super effective attack, and subsequently gliscor to avoid the ground attack. togekiss can special wall if you see a water attack coming, alternatively. set up stealth rock.
phase 4 - gengar blocks rapid spinners and cripples with hypnosis and strong special attacks. machamp spreads confusion and adds to the residual damage that by this point is hopefully very heavy.
phase 5 - togekiss comes out for the lategame cleanup whenever sweeping with aura sphere and air slash seems possible.

why not:
-fast taunt leads like crobat and aerodactyl screw this combo over royally.
-sturdy, status-immune leads like lum berry bronzong also screw this combo over royally.
-weavile weak in the late game.
-almost all ghost-types "wall" the strategy.

solutions:
-take out the good, interchangeable parts of this team and use them in the pool.
-togekiss, gengar, and heatran are clearly going to be used for offense.
-gliscor provides a very sturdy, relatively fast, multipurpose physical wall with a strong attacking stat. even though its definitive use is defense, it doesn't interfere with an offensive playing style, so it's really up to you if you want to use up a slot with it. in my opinion, doing so would be a solid, but not a necessary choice.
-dynamicpunch machamp acts as more of an offensive shuffler than a physical tank. it's unreliable. personally, i wouldn't use it - lucario is much more versatile, and with swords dance, much more powerful.
-roserade is quite horrible at doing anything but leading single battles, and it's one of the least versatile leads to boot. don't use it!

overview of our potential pool so far:


does that look okay to you? jolteon is virtually interchangeable with electivire for its electric absorption abilities. zapdos could also replace jolteon for subpassing, boltbeaming purposes.

what i want to do next is focus on adding one or two strong doubles partners. for example, a sunny day + chlorophyll + focus sash user could work in tandem with heatran and provide your pool with grass-type offense that will be absolutely crucial in your battles against the water, rock, and ground gyms. i also think we should consider using grass knot on deoxys-s, since aside from hidden power grass on jolteon, the pool has no other effective way of providing grass-type attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:38 am

I like the pool so far, and I agree with the solutions. As you said, dropping Roserade will be optimal and dropping Machamp for Lucario sounds like the best solution to me, as well. I think I'd like to keep Gliscor in, unless it's really necessary. I had my team completely swept by one on PBR once (it had a Yache berry, so Weavile didn't OHKO it) and it's earned my respect since then. I think if it was given a Jolly nature + max Speed and a Yache berry, it could definitely be an extremely potent threat due to it's type coverage and great stats.

The only problem I could conceivably have with Jolteon is actually Hidden Power itself. It's really hard for me to get one with the right HP on cartridge and still manage to get the right nature/good IVs. I don't know if you have any ideas to remedy that or not, but right now it seems like a bit of a problem to me Neutral

As for Grass attacking options, would it need STAB or not? I guess not, but there are some good Pokemon out there for Grass STAB like Tangrowth, Leafeon, and Sceptile. Tangrowth might not be that good a choice for this pool, but Sceptile and Leafeon are definitely on the speedier side, and Leafeon can BP Wish or Swords Dance.

One more thing to mention; Gyarados is currently the only Water-type. That wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but the Water Gym requires one Water-type and restricts recovery (including Leftovers) and Sleep status. And that pretty much kills the option of Bulkygyara, as well as most Bulky Waters. So that's something to work around scratch

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:19 am

decent idea on gliscor, but yachechomp outclasses the set in all senses. dragon, ground, and fire hit absolutely everything, and in the long run will hit harder than gliscor ever hopes to with the bronzong-walled quakebeam. furthermore, if quakebeam sweeping is your preference, all variants of mamoswine will be way more destructive than gliscor, especially with mixmamo's wallbreaking capability.

i would recommend keeping it somewhat defensively minded: even the standard physical wall set is unusually offensive. if you shy away from using a physical wall in an offensive theme pool, rock polish or swords dance baton passing will serve you well. a plus side of rock polish passing is that you can use an ice punch weavile instead of an ice shard weavile, since ice shard's number one target--scarfchomp--will be easily outsped.

for jolteon, you can cop out like i did and use yawnjolt (ryomou shimei). it's not going to sweep, but it's still very offensively styled: when many opponents expect you to use it for pure subpassing, you can surprise them and deal tons of damage to non-ground or grass types with thunderbolt. base 110 spatk is nothing to sneeze at.

no, grass doesn't have to be stab, although a grass-type would be useful to have. my argument for using tangrowth will be the same as my argument for using physical wall gliscor, especially since tangrowth carries even more offense with power whip + 100 base atk as opposed to weak quakebeam + 95 base atk. tangrowth will also be infinitely useful as a defensive grass-type versus the water gym, since it's practically guaranteed that the leader is using gyarados and/or swampert.

can you give me some moveset analyses for tangrowth, leafeon, and sceptile? i imagine your idea for tangrowth will end up more or less standard, but leafeon has a couple of different options, and sceptile has like, more than a couple.

as for gyarados being the only water type, that's not a problem. as you may recall, r/s tauntrados didn't carry a bulky ev spread, and couldn't use one - there were far too few physical options for gyarados. d/p nonbulky gyarados carries a host of possibilities: two-attack tauntrados or three-attack dd-dos with life orb, or choice band. waterfall, earthquake, ice fang, stone edge, bite, and return are more than plenty to cause damage. against the water-type gym, however, you obviously won't be using gyarados until lategame--nonbulky gyarados won't have enough time to taunt, dragon dance, and sweep before getting koed with hidden power electric or thunderbolt--so if you already carry bulkydos and don't want to train a whole new one, sticking a life orb on bulkydos for the duration of the water match will be more than enough.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:03 pm

Alright, I see what you mean about Gliscor. Since we already have a Garchomp on the team then I think it'd be best to forgo him and leave an extra slot open. The yawnjolt idea sounds good as well.

Well, I have my ideas for a Grass type, but maybe we ought to check out the competition ahead of time first. Here's the page for the Water gym, and all the Pokemon he uses is in one of the spoiler tag things in the first post. But by the looks of it, with the exception of Pikachu, they're all Water types and all lack a Fire type attack, which could be exactly what could help me win. Tangrowth could really win the match pretty easily, but I couldn't use Sleep Powder or Leftovers/Morning Sun on it. Still, I think a Chlorophyll set could destroy that gym. It'd probably have to split between Sp.Atk and Atk, though since just using Solarbeam would mean it'd be walled by at least Empoleon.

Otherwise, I could see Sceptile going as either a Physical or Special Sweeper, but Leafeon is pretty limited so it may just want to stay as a SD passer that can sweep if it gets a chance.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:30 pm

boy, am i glad the water gym is the only overall unreasonable one. since this isn't on shoddy, teambuilding to counter a bunch of different rulesets would be lots of trouble to conceptualize. ._.

a tangrowth chlorophyll set would go something like sunny day-solarbeam-sludge bomb-toxic? maybe running stun spore-knock off-leech seed-power whip would be more useful, since leech seed is technically not a healing move. keep in mind that rain dance sweeping may be a possibility (especially with kingdra waiting in the wings, and ice beam ohkoing tangrowth before it can even say a prayer). using a life orbed bulkydos in tandem with, say, a yache berry, "defensive grass" style tangrowth might do the trick for the water gym, and you can easily bring back sleep powder using a heart scale later on, and no one would know the difference. the problem with limiting tangrowth to a chlorophyll set is that it's only "multipurpose" in ubers, whereas the defensive grass tangrowth serves as a strong attacking physical wall suitable for many instances.

if you do settle on defensive grass tangrowth and run into problems exploiting that leech seed loophole, i make a very good lawyer. ;o

if tangrowth isn't your bag, leafeon will fit easily into the pool with something like swords dance-baton pass-leaf blade-quick attack, or sceptile with basically "whatever".

also note that you can use breloom to exploit the leech seed loophole as well, and if you really wanted to push it...toxic orb is technically not a healing item. swords dance breloom with mach punch, seed bomb, and facade is viable with toxic orb; otherwise, if they won't let you use toxic orb, you can run life orb, and spore over facade, virtually ignoring spore's presence during the water match, since the ridiculous attack power offered you by life orb and swords dance can easily sweep using mach punch and seed bomb.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:18 pm

You're telling me. What a pain...I shall derive much pleasure in his defeat. Btw, he uses Gyara + Swampert as a combo, and his Suicune has Mirror Coat. I picked that up from reading some of the stuff that happened in the battles that he apparently felt like posting Laugh

Anyway, I like the idea of Breloom there, since there's no way he can complain about "healing" if I don't in any way what so ever. Plus, if Breloom can still sweep everyone with ease and get the job done, then that suits me just fine. Plus, they don't have any rules against switching around attacks/items for different gyms so I don't see why it couldn't work.

But I still can't decide who'd best fit the spot pale *is indecisive*

Edit: Now that I look at it, it only says "No healing items (held or otherwise)" which means that Leftovers is pretty much the only thing that would fall into that category since I couldn't use something like a Full Restore anyway. Since Toxic Orb technically isn't a healing item, I think it would fit the criteria, as with Leech Seed since it isn't an item. Spore/Sleep Powder still can't be used, though.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:36 pm

Actually, we have one more problem. They don't allow the use of "hacked" Pokemon in the League. And while it's easy for me to get most of the Pokemon without hacking them directly (I AR their parents and breed for IVs), I have no way of getting a legit Deoxys-S No

Oh, and double posts ftw.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:40 pm

My friend has a legit deoxys-s, though i haven't checked out the IV's and he didn't EV train it.
I will ask him to trade it to me for a couple of hacked ( which i will say are legit ) shiny blisseys.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:48 pm

Would you really? Snakehead ftw! alien

I think Deoxys-S is already beastly enough that the IVs/Nature won't matter too much, as long as it's not a -Spd or -Sp.Atk/Atk. Even so, it's still better than nothing.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:48 pm

i recommend running grass knot on deoxys-s as a very high priority, as it'll deal a sure 2hko to gyarados with life orb, and it'll allow you to hit swampert very neatly, obviously. on the plus side, when you change deoxys-s to deoxys-a, you'll have grass knot all ready to go for groudon in ubers play. awesome!

suicune won't have anything to say to tauntrados. if it's legit, i doubt it runs hidden power electric, but if it does, just stay alert. fortunately, most hp electric suicune don't carry ice beam, and with mirror coat being a guarantee, suicune will serve as mere set-up fodder.

if you want a breloom, use a breloom. i've never trained one so i don't know whether to recommend tangrowth over it for sheer ease of training, but i can say that tangrowth is very, very, very easy to train. it's lots of fun as well. important to note: playing a leech seed breloom will limit your attacking options. leech seed isn't really useful on breloom without substitute, since breloom isn't sturdy enough to receive healing > damage. and if you're substituting, might as well focus punch! that leaves you with a single slot to play around with--spore would aid in subseeding/subpunching strategy but it would make breloom pretty useless in a no-sleep situation, so you would be best off with seed bomb. however, i would think you'd want to use spore in other battles when you could, and there's no way to heart scale spore back in, so you're basically stuck with a question of leech seed vs. spore? it's up to you.

now that we've virtually locked in another team slot, we need to figure out what you plan to do with these double battles. granted, doubles strategy isn't all that complicated, and i doubt the gym leaders will be using topnotch doubles ideas, but we need to focus on these for the sake of building potential movesets. speak to me, what do you want to do? ._.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:32 pm

I lyke the Deoxys set. I just hope that the legit Deoxys has good enough stats to pull off this little strategy...Having the ability to switch at will into an equally decent Deoxys-A is a hell of a plus, too!

As for the Suicune, I'd have to agree with you. Judging by what I've seen from these forums, these guys REALLY hate hacking, especially the Gym leaders. Therefore, I find it most likely that he does, indeed, have a legit Suicune and that he problably uses Ice Beam over HP Electric.

As for Breloom v.s. Tangrowth, I think it'd be better to just go with Breloom over Tangrowth to fit the "all out sweeping" theme, but you probably know what's better overall better than I do. I think that not using Spore for the match won't be too much trouble, as long as I can still work with it's absence for just one match. I'm thinking: Substitute/Focus Punch/Seed Bomb/Spore, so that I can interchange Leech Seed and Seed Bomb. Maybe that won't work, I dunno. Another solution may be to try to just BPass it a Sub via Jolteon, who should prove useful in the Water gym anyway. I dunno...But as to the argument of Leech Seed v.s. Spore: I can always get Leech Seed back. Spore I can't. Therefore, I'd have to say that Spore's probably the best choice to keep, since it'll help out more in the long run.

Double battles, I don't think we need to worry about. I'm pretty sure that most Gym battles are 6v6 by default, or otherwise you get to choose your battle type, whether that be doubles or 3v3 or whatever. I'm pretty sure the only oddball one was the Normal Gym (ironically), which is a 4v4 fight.

But if you really want to work in a double battle strategy just in case, be my guest. I'm almost certain it won't be necessary, though.

EDIT: Speaking of the Normal Gym, I checked out his page and he actually has it so that only DIRECT Sleep inducing isn't allowed like Spore (probably the reason for the rule) or Sleep Powder. The exceptions are moves/abilities with indirect sleep inducing (though no moves come to mind...), and I read that Rest IS actually allowed.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:59 am

If rest is allowed you could always add a sleeptalking milotic to the group for a extra water member.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:08 am

You ever find out about that Deoxys, Snake? I can get you something nifty for it, if ye need it. I might be able to get you a shiny, too (not legit, unfortunately) but I'm still working with my shiny code in AR since it doesn't work with the Pokemon Modifier code for some reason Suspect

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:42 pm

How about a bidoof? I don't really need anything...

I've got every single pokemon i need (that includes every one that is OU and most bl) through my friend (not the same one i will get the legit deoxys off).

It is actually in attack form but you can change it to speed if you press the meteorite. ( I think )

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:55 pm

Oh, so anything? I'll surprise you, then Laugh

And yes, the little meteorite thingys change his forms, so no worries there.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:02 pm

Just got the email from him saying he will trade it for a shiny blissey.... luckily i have a "legit" one.

I'm wondering on PBR, can you use hacked pokemon that are legal with legal stats obtained right and so on?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:08 pm

Oh, trust me, you can use anything on PBR. Seriously, I've seen teams of shiny Pokemon in Master Balls. Besides that, I do have one hacked shiny Pokemon my friend traded me and it shows up just fine.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:43 pm

Dragon wrote:
[For Breloom,] I'm thinking: Substitute/Focus Punch/Seed Bomb/Spore, so that I can interchange Leech Seed and Seed Bomb...Another solution may be to try to just BPass it a Sub via Jolteon, who should prove useful in the Water gym anyway...But as to the argument of Leech Seed v.s. Spore: I can always get Leech Seed back. Spore I can't. Therefore, I'd have to say that Spore's probably the best choice to keep, since it'll help out more in the long run.
without leech seed, subpunching isn't much of a great strategy. try this:


breloom @ toxic orb
poison heal
jolly
12 hp, 252 atk, 240 spe
-bulk up
-mach punch
-seed bomb
-spore

in standard play, spore someone, bulk up on the switch, then start dealing the pain with mach punch and seed bomb. very simple. the evs and nature given allow you to outspeed max speed, neutral natured base 80s, notably dragonite, togekiss, medicham, and mamoswine. for this set, you might prefer this ev spread: adamant 70 hp, 252 atk, 188 spe--outruns standard bulky gyarados. 70 hp evs will certainly provide you with a little more durability.

alternatively, you can run adamant 6 hp, 252 atk, 252 spe: with this ev spread, use swords dance instead of bulk up and life orb instead of toxic orb.

bulk up/70 hp might be best for the water gym, since aside from kingdra under rain dance, you outspeed every other pokemon anyway, except for pikachu, who you don't have a hope of outspeeding regardless. also important to note: since you can't sleep anyone in the water gym, this breloom will absolutely need a substitute from jolteon to sweep. outside of the water gym, however, the adamant/6 hp swords dancer or the jolly/12 hp spread will be optimal.

double battles strategies

steel
strongly consider choice band dugtrio. oh my god, would dugtrio be awesome in the steel gym. lead with him and gengar for maximum whoopass: dugtrio's earthquake will absolutely dominate anything that isn't named metagross, forretress, or skarmory; the two ground-bound ones are sure to be ohkoed with cb earthquake + anything neutrally effective from gengar, and skarmory is obviously ohkoed by thunderbolt. it's not arena trapped, but that's of little consequence since it's a pushover in the endgame with deoxys-s in the wings.

normal
just use a strong lead combo again. dugtrio+gengar, gyarados+jolteon, salamence+metagross (have we included metagross in the pool? we totally should), etc. plain old doubles battles really aren't that complex, although the doubles battles metagame is, as i've found, becoming increasingly difficult by the day.

the indirect sleep inducing move you're looking for is yawn.
aren't you just getting to love yawnjolt more and more? i know the feeling. she's my favorite electric pokemon ever. ever.

anyway:
in my next post, i hope to post an updated, nearly finalized version of the pool and RMT #2. can you draft a team overview using the pool? please include gengar and breloom in the team, and dugtrio, if my review of the steel doubles strategy was convincing enough. also please note that i only need an overview; i'll provide you with some movesets and any revisions.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:19 pm

in other news, holy fuck. i was just googling for a d/p alternative to the standard jaskwak team, and i end up finding that gts+ is full of class idiots. i think when we're done with this pool, they'll all practically be begging for you to teach them teambuilding after you completely rape the gym league challenge.

edit: i don't think that the wordfilter for fuck is very funny.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:32 pm

See, I wasn't kidding about the Will-O-Wisp thing! These guys know NOTHING. I posted my Trick Room Team up there to get a few second opinions and they were just blown away. Like I said, they're pushovers and that's why I'm going to destroy them out of anger for not allowing me to be the Dragon gym leader. Hooray for anger, spite, and revenge cheers

But yes, I think Breloom will work. We just need to solidify the team as a whole and see how it would best fit in overall, I think. And naturally, I'd love a Gengar and Dugtrio, as well. Metagross too, if he'll fit. I'll put up a rough rough rough rough draft either in this post or in my next of the pool.

I'm also thinking I'll just AR a Deoxys-S like I'd originally planned and use Snakes as a decoy if they actually decide to look into it's legitimacy. As long as I don't battle them on PBR, there's no way for them to be able to tell, really, and I doubt they're smart enough to find out otherwise.

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