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 project dragon: the 15 pool

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Snakehead
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:15 pm

Well, not if you think that grand grandparents that are hacked aren't legit.

But as far as i go the pokemon is legit.... though it's grandparents aren't.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:27 pm

Oh, no that's totally legit in my eyes. It isn't hacked, after all. It was just hatched from an egg like any other little Staryu...

See, that's exactly what I'd need...as long as it was Timid natured bounce

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:49 pm

You could have one of the grandparents... though i don't know if they are timid, i couldn't be bothered to pass down natures and got lucky.

Technically, on websites which say no hacked, sharked or ar replayed pokemon, you can still have cloned pokemon since it does not specify that it is illegal in their rule book. So you could just have a cloned starmie and change the attacks.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:53 pm

:O True. Is there any way ye could clone that extremely awesome one for me?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:56 pm

yes in the GTS center... though it will take some time and i can't do it tonight. I will do it this morning, then we can arrange a trade.

Do you have a nice level 1 bidoof you are willing to trade for it?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:07 pm

I don't know if I could bring myself to part with it...well...I suppose it's for the best Crying or Very sad

Actually, just let me surprise you. Bidoof is too cliche, after all. I'll trade you something interesting instead What a Face

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:08 pm

Double post!

Btw, Charlotte, how's RMT#3 coming along? I haven't heard anything from you since yesterday and every time you're on, it's only for about 16 seconds...so yeh. Also, we can keep the previously mentioned standard Shucagross if it's still the best option, since I can just Pokesav a Thunderpunch on him, since I'll already have to use it for Deoxys-S, Salamence, and Heatran, anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:12 pm

shucagross it is, then. i got attached to the little jirachi mini-sprite, though, so i'm gonna miss it.

at least this gives me an opportunity to use both metagross and jirachi in some sort of rmt, since i'm in the process of planning another team of my own utilizing a jirachi. :3

i have the team strategy all planned out already, so it's just a bunch of writing that i'm doing. not sure yet, but this might be the longest RMT so far.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:22 pm

:O I see. Well, then I shall await it with bated breath.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:07 pm

yeah, i'm really sorry about the delays, i've been getting distracted with my escapades into the uu and ubers metagames. i meant to have this done yesterday, but it's going to have to be tomorrow (wednesday).

definitely tomorrow!
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:04 am

Haha, alright. I'm just getting anxious because you said there may be some EV changes, so I can't know what to do until RMT#3 goes up bounce

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:08 pm

RMT #3: how to use the pool


overview


intro
because this pool is an attempt to build an elite, offensively-based group of pokemon, many references have been made to the success of astral projection, one of the best-known offensive teams in the metagame. as such, when i tried to create a team based around shucagross, i found myself making a conscious effort not to use something that is merely "another variant" of husk's team. unfortunately, it's hard to ignore excellent type synergy like that found in astral projection, so the finished product, as presented here, inevitably makes use of similar strategies.

game plan
this team utilizes two main strategies to succeed: stat boosting and revenge killing. exactly half of the team is dedicated to the former; the other half, the latter. this team is by no means a foolproof one, but is merely an attempt to demonstrate the wide variety of offensive strategies that can be formed through careful selection from the pool.

in depth

gyarados @ leftovers
adamant
intimidate
216 hp, 16 atk, 172 def, 104 spe
-taunt
-dragon dance
-waterfall
-return

my personal favorite for a lead, as it is obviously one of the most effective. taunt remains one of the most excellent moves in the game, and is the team's best answer against most status-driven leads. more specifically, the only reason that gyarados is in the lead position over deoxys-s, gengar, and metagross is because of his use of taunt, and the fact that this team lacks an acceptable sleep absorber. unlike the previous team, where jolteon could pull off a substitute before trouble struck, this team requires a somewhat slower start before launching into the offensive.

be very careful to keep gyarados alive, as this particular team has no better answer for scarftran or non-charge beam bronzong. i personally have witnessed the drastic effects that the combination of these two can put on astral projection-based sweeps.


scizor @ leftovers
adamant
swarm
106 hp, 252 atk, 152 spe
-agility
-baton pass
-x-scissor
-iron head

scizor makes a return to this team as an agility passer. i purposefully avoided choice items on this team for maximum effectiveness: barring priority moves, a speed boost pass to anybody on this team can easily spell 6-0 for the opponent.


metagross @ shuca berry
adamant
clear body
244 hp, 252 atk, 12 def
-meteor mash
-earthquake
-thunderpunch
-explosion

you might not be able to pull this pass very easily, since most scizor counters attempt to take advantage of his fire weakness and low special defense, which metagross shares. however, if you can, pseudo-agiligross will surprise some opponents who don't see it coming. after the speed boost pass, shucagross can tear through teams even more effectively than yachechomp. factoring in agility, bullet punch is no longer useful against the likes of weavile and aerodactyl, so explosion will make sure metagross leaves a mark on almost anything capable of stopping it.


dugtrio @ choice band
adamant
arena trap
6 hp, 252 atk, 252 spe
-earthquake
-stone edge
-aerial ace
-sucker punch

revenge killer number one. dugtrio acts very similarly to how husk's choice band garchomp did, except now with a cool trapping ability, but lacking the huge attack power. easier on prediction, tougher on usability. tbh, garchomp would fit much better in this slot, but i felt like being a little original, since i myself don't like it when people copy other people's teams.


gengar @ life orb
timid
levitate
6 hp, 252 spatk, 252 spe
-hypnosis
-shadow ball
-thunderbolt
-focus blast

revenge killer number two. serving as this team's token sleep inducer, gengar can prove useful with a quick hypnosis mid- to late-game. the immense speed and power this guy carries is nothing you should be unfamiliar with; there's a reason he's been popular since the very beginning.


deoxys-s @ expert belt
naive
pressure
6 atk, 252 spatk, 252 spe
-thunderbolt
-ice beam
-psychic
-superpower

revenge killer number three. as always, deoxys-s is best relegated to endgame cleanup. and he never complains. what a cool dude. life orb is actually better here, but expert belt is just for the sake of some variety. i always like to put it on whenever possible, because sometimes 10% recoil can be really risky.

discussion (or, goals for RMT #3: revisited)
1. to finalize our thoughts on, and our formation of the 15 pool.
2. to discuss the relative unimportance of "super effective" attacks and provide advice on moveset retention.
3. to hopefully incorporate some of the yet-unused pokemon into a team, and thus summarizing their potential in multiple teams.
4. to pinpoint the factors necessary to quickly build a successful, offensive team of 6 from our 15 pool.


i apologize in advance if past this, my writing seems a bit disillusioned and unfocused. i've been playing nothing but UU for the past 36 hours before i wrote this, so i'm feeling a little out of the loop right now.

how this team demonstrates ways to use the pool
largely, this team utilizes a similar offensive style to that of astral projection. that much is evident with the presence of gengar, gyarados, and deoxys. obviously, though, it's a different team. what does this tell us? the main idea i want to point out is that using only the pokemon from the pool, it is easy to duplicate nearly any kind of offensive strategy currently available. aside from trick room offense, you'll find the most common sweeping strategies in the game: slow, sturdy attack boosting; stat up/substitute baton passing; fast, dangerous boost sweepers; attackers that need paralysis support; choice users; pseudo-subpunchers; straight-out attackers. you can use these different types of sweepers in combination with each other to achieve different styles of offensive play: recreate the jaskwak combination using scizor and a separate swords dancer, build a team around letting a single pokemon sweep and provide counters for the counters, bring in a lineup of choice item users and focus on prediction and "revenge killing" plan.

after all, this is what the pool's purpose is: to be able to take on any single type with a team, almost randomly selected.

why did we even bother with this lengthy analysis of the pool?
this pool was tailored to take on a gym challenge of seventeen different types. one might ask: why not just pick fifteen different pokemon that get STAB on supereffective moves against these seventeen types, like get a pikachu to blast through the water gym, or typhlosion to dominate the grass gym, just like i can in the games? we could omit a normal type and a poison type, because those barely hit anything super effective.

the answer is that it simply won't work that way. we must assume the gym leaders have carefully selected their lineups to counter the super-effective attackers as best as possible, and retain as much type defense as possible against other kinds of attacks. therefore, when you select a team to face a certain gym, do your very best not to place bias towards attackers of the supereffective type: sometimes, this may be your very undoing. to give an example, garchomp, dragonite, and salamence are three of the top attackers in today's game, and their main STAB is dragon-type. however, anyone who remembers facing lance and claire in the elite four and blackthorn gym battles, respectively, will remember that dragon-type attacks hit only one type super-effective. why, then, are these pokemon so good at using moves like outrage and draco meteor to cause serious damage? the answer lies in the list of those who resist dragon-type moves: only one, the steel type. going from the example of these three, we can conclude that the most important thing for a sweeper is not hitting the largest range of types with super-effective moves, but creating a combination of moves that is resisted by not a single pokemon.

this piece of advice may serve you best in building teams for gyms like dragon, ghost, and normal, where their lack of type weaknesses gives them a defensive advantage, and gyms like ground, grass, and rock, where they may have a few common type weaknesses, but typically carry the moves and stats to more than make up for them. for example, do not be tempted to drop weavile's brick break for aerial ace in the fighting gym, as it won't be particularly useful if you manage to get him in anyway and attempt a sweep.

what makes a good team?
as these three RMTs have attempted to demonstrate, the key to winning with an offensive team is to exert enough threatening pressure on the opponent to force him or her to constantly batter you with direct damaging attacks, and subsequently, outpredict your opponent's attacks by switching to proper counters, and ultimately, set up for a sweep. therefore, it's important to always have something ready to stop pokemon who have the potential to break the offensive pressure: taunt gyarados prevents phazers from ruining stat boosts; substituters like jolteon scout the opponent's moves and provide status protection for the team; pokemon with the right types can provide certain convenient immunities, like heatran being immune to fire; and sometimes, straight-out immunities to status, like breloom's poison heal blocking sleep infliction, burns, and paralysis, or alternatively, using lum berry. furthermore, status inflicters of your own, like gengar or togekiss, may prove useful in shutting down these unsavory characters completely and allowing you to set up for a sweep. attempting to use a team without any one of these pokemon on hand may result in complete disaster. after taking these threats into account, it is acceptable to form a team around your status blocker of choice as you wish.

note that focus sashes and "speed boost" pokemon may prove detrimental to your strategy. most especially, focus sashes may hurt: the fragile pokemon that you outspeed and out-type can revenge kill your sweeper and take you completely by surprise with a super-effective attack, or a countersash combo. for this purpose, it is advised to run stealth rock in single battles when deemed useful: heatran and deoxys-s can both provide this valuable service, which will allow you to ohko an entire team without fear. "speed boost" pokemon, on the other hand, are a similar threat: whether they use protect to outspeed you and revenge sweep in a pinch, or agility to set up for a sweep, it is important to include a useful priority move to better counter their kind. weavile can stop yanmega and ninjask, if necessary, using ice shard; metagross, in turn, can stop weavile using bullet punch. breloom is your best priority option against agility empoleon, who is a growing threat to many offensive teams, and lucario's swords danced extremespeed spells death for anything that doesn't resist it.

don't forget that deoxys-s has the defensive stats to take a neutral hit, or possibly even two: base 90 on both sides is nothing to sneeze at. he outspeeds almost anything, even with their speed boosted one or two stages, so be sure to bring him in if things seem dangerous. be aware that he can be safely chosen over any of the four priority movers provided.

conclusion
suggestions for this pool were made based on threats present in the entire metagame. i chose a group of pokemon that, when selected from carefully enough, will have the potential to form a team that can counter and overwhelm any type of offensive and nonoffensive threat.

that said, you're walking into this challenge somewhat overprepared. you won't have to choose nearly as carefully as i did when creating the last two rmts, because you will already have a certain knowledge of your opposition. it stands to reason that you'll select a healthy amount of steel types, and take advantage of jolteon's substitute, to counter the status afflictions that the grass-type gym is liable to throw at you. you'll obviously pick weavile and scizor to bring to the psychic-type gym, because there isn't anyone better than they are at killing the opposition. and of course, dugtrio and heatran are totally going to own the steel arena.

my parting advice is not to waste this pool once you're done with it. you may find that most of these pokemon, with slightly modified movesets, will be excellent options to experiment with in the battle tower. the ability to pick many different teams of 6 from this pool might lead you to try some new strategies, maybe in tandem with pokemon you've already trained. as i've stressed many times before, i believe this pool carries the potential to form a team which can break the metagame, a team which can be undefeatable.

when you're done completely annihilating the gts+ gym leaders, please enjoy the fruits of your labor and join the quest to create an undefeatable team.

HAPPY BATTLING!


Last edited by Charlotte on Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:25 am

cheers Horray for RMT #3! I simply love it and there's no way I could ever possibly thank you enough, but THANK YOU!!! I feel really sorry for GTS+ now, since these guys are going to mop the floor with them...

There's only one problem that I see: during a session of my own stupidity, I seem to have marked two "12." spots on the Pool List and counted in both Salamence and Dugtrio. I notice that in your last post Salamence isn't in the group, but that could have been that you just skipped him over. Still, he's a part of RMT #2 so I don't know if he'll be too valuable an asset to lose or not pale

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:00 am

my bad.
omit togekiss, run salamence.
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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:46 am

Dragon do you mind if i use this team if i ever get to play on shoddy?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:17 am

Charlotte wrote:
my bad.
omit togekiss, run salamence.
Yosh! Will do!

And yes, Snake feel free to use any of these guys in any combination you want, as well as the RMTs. I can't get on Shoddy anyway, so.. Laugh

Btw, most of those Pokemon pictures from Smogon I thought were pretty "Eh..." but I have to say, that picture of Metagross is pretty much amazing. I must say, that picture alone makes me even more psyched to include him on the team Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:22 am

Dragon do you want that starmie now?

And isn't the art work done by aragornbird?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:59 am

Sure, I'll trade you now if you want. Well, whenever you get back anyway. Just let me know when you're on. My character name/FC are in my sig. I'll be trading ye from Pokii.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:01 am

I'm back just had a battle.. ( I won easily ).

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:11 am

Btw, Snake what's your character name/FC?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am

name is p
My FC is 1504 7641 0346

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:15 am

Lowercase or capital P? I'll just host XD

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:16 am

Capital

srry i was late... mum called me to take out the trash.

And Charlotte, your Ikki thingymabob (sorry forgot the name) offensive team is wicked! I have used it 3 battles now against various gym leaders on wifipredators (where I am a gym leader myself) and defeated them with my stylus behind my back.
I say it is one of the best teams created, i haven't tried it against any variations of the astral project yet but hope to soon.

Please continue developing this pool and create the ULTIMATE UNBEATABLE TEAM.

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:27 pm

Ok, I decided the One Piece names were kinda stupid (though I did keep Luffy and Franky...), and named them other stuff instead.

Charlotte, should I go with Stone Edge or Facade on Flame Orb Heracross?

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PostSubject: Re: project dragon: the 15 pool   Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:53 pm

run facade if you have issues with gliscor and weezing. otherwise, stone edge is the superior option.
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